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Selling other people’s product with Matt McWilliams

Interview with Matt McWilliams

Welcome everyone.
I am super excited to have with me today Matt McWilliams.
And I'm just going to give you a quick intro so that you know what Matt is and what he's doing.
So, if you want to grow your influence,

have a bigger impact and make more money in the process, he is your go to guy.
Entrepreneurs and companies such as Michael Hyatt, Ray Edwards, Brian Treacey, Lewis Howes, Shutterfly, Jeff Gordon and Ziegler family

have trusted Matt to run their athlete launches.
Matt helps online business owners and brands, small and large, to leverage the power of partners to grow their businesses.
He teaches you how to make money as an affiliate and how to work better with affiliates.

So welcome Matt.
Thank you so much for joining me today.
Hey, thanks for having me.
I think my intro is a lot cooler with a French accent.
All right cool.

That's really cool.
Well I can do your intros

if you want.
Let's see, let's do that.
We'll just have you record a video, will take that, will just take what we recorded, send me that, I'll crop it out and we'll just have that play before I speak.
I'm happy to if you want to.
Be my guest.

So the reason I have you here Matt, is because I think you have a lot to share with tour audience.
I was you know, really watching your videos and of course I know a bit about what you are doing.

I don't know a lot of people that do affiliate marketing really, really well, and I definitely know you do that very well and you teach it.
So you have… You're on both sides of things, and

uh, I'm so happy to have you here.
So I'm going to get started with a couple of questions that I have for you, if that's okay?
All right.
So the first thing is could you describe to us what it is exactly that you do and who you do it for and how you're helping people? Yeah.

So this is one of those questions like, I always have such a hard time answering with the general public.
So I'm going to assume that if you're watching you have at least an understanding of what affiliate marketing is because when I try to explain this to the in laws

it never goes well.
So I'm just like, you explain it.
My wife explains everything.
And she does a great job of explaining what we do to people who don't know anything about Internet marketing.
But assuming that you at least have a basic understanding of what affiliate marketing is,

our business is actually components.
We got three areas of our business.
Number one we have, and I'll dig into them in a second.
We have our client work.
We work with clients.
You mentioned before like Michael Hyatt,

Ray Edwards, worked with Lewis Howes, Brian Treacy and others.
Then we have our coaching and consulting side which is essentially where I coaching consult people who want to run their own affiliate programs.
But I don't really run it for them.

And then the third side is our courses in our products.
And right now you know, our business is evolving.
Last year it was 90% client work, 10% everything else.
Our goal this year was to get to 50 you know where

work client only made up 50% of our revenue.
Because the down side you know, we're talking about lifestyle entrepreneurs.
But it's the downside, the client work is… There are certain days of the year and certain periods of time where it's like, I don't have that flexibility that I want.
Now that's not 365 days a year, and we're getting it down to less than 100, so that's a win.

But I want to get client work to where we rely less and less on that for our revenue.
So those three areas look like you know, client work we literally run the affiliate launches for our clients, and I made an intentional decision last year,

we limited that the five clients.
That it.
Like that's all we work with is our five core clients.
And it was one of those things like, we said OK, if these people came to us today, would we work with them?

And if the answer wasn't absolutely, we just.
you know, we had tough conversations with people, and we we got rid of some clients.
And if they're not already on our dream list and I'll tell you there's two people in the entire face of the earth that aren't on our dream list right now that we don't have.
We have the other five.

We have five of the seven.
If you're not on our dream list and you come to us right now, the answer is no.
You know, we're not going to work with you now.
The second component is that we do some consulting

which is essentially where I teach you how to do what we do.
And in a very accelerated pace compared to our courses, we teach people how to run, you know, work with affiliates.
And then the third component is our courses

which is more of you know, admittedly like later today I've actually got a call with some of our students where we teach people how to do two things.
We teach people how to do what we do but it's not,

it's hands off.
It's like, here's the course, independent study.
And then we teach people how to do affiliate marketing.
So we have a course called no product no problem where we teach people how to make money,

you know, passive income and some active income with affiliate marketing.
And I kind of missed, you know, the most obvious fourth part of our business is, you know, we do a lot of affiliate marketing.

For us, that's actually, I literally just ran the numbers.
I got to a posted note right here because we're updating a page um, on our website to talk about how much we made.
And in the last calendar year, we made $113, 392 just in affiliate commissions.

So that stuff where we didn't have to do…I mean like the great thing about affiliate marketing is the level of work that we put into it is very low compared to the return.
I promise you,

as a company, we did not spend more than 100 hours to make that $113, 000.
So it's a good are ROI because we're not creating the product versus my courses, I know what goes into those.
Being in front of a camera for about 100 hours to get the right takes and the right words so.
I don't like making courses.

I like having made a course, but I don't like making them.
So that's our business in a nutshell.
It's kind of those four areas.
Right now it's tilted toward client but we're trying to get that down.

So we do do affiliate marketing.
Actually, a few years back, that's kind of all we were doing.
And we were doing really well at some point.
It was not at all in the online marketing space

but we got basically burned by you know, putting too many eggs in the same basket.
And if something happens to the product, then you're in trouble because you're not in control.
So that's definitely one of the issues.

But I'm sure you're teaching that and there are ways to…
You touch on a good point there Natalie.
It's like, as much as I love affiliate marketing, I'm the affiliate guy.
I have a podcast.
I do 365 episodes a year on the affiliate guy daily

talking about affiliate marketing.
I produce over 200 videos a year.
I do live events and blog post.
I mean, like, I like this stuff right? In fact I love it.
It wakes me up.

I'm passionate, about it.
And I still say, that it shouldn't be all of your you know, your revenue.
Like for us, it's a large part of our revenue but our affiliate commissions, that 113, 000 is a little bit less than 25% of our revenue.

So it's one of those things.
If all of the affiliate programs we promote dropped us tomorrow, I'd be upset, frustrated but we'd last about 48 hours because I have the other 77%.
It's the same thing with our clients.

Like if one of our clients quit, I'd be, I mean I would be disappointed.
I mean I would be introspective like why did they quit? What did we do wrong? But it doesn't affect whether or not we get to go on vacation next month.

It doesn't affect whether or not my kids get to go to the school we choose for them.
Because it's such that any one client is effectively such a small percentage of our revenue.
And that's what we have, is we have all these different revenue streams that none of them,

there's not a single… Like if you break our affiliate promotions down to individual programs, our clients down to individual streams, our products and all that, there's not a single stream of income we have that we were close to 10% of our revenue.


That is true, yeah.

If things dried up It's like, well that sucks but it's not the end of the world.
Yeah, that is awesome.
I mean, for us it was like 90 percent was like on one product.
And then we managed to rank number one in Google in front of them,

and from that time they were really mad.
And they did everything to basically not help us.
So we decided to leave.
But yeah.
I think that's one of the keys with

affiliate marketing is to diversify.
And for us, it's definitely ice around the cake.
So now and you know, it kind of like takes a bit of time to build up that, uh,

you know, months recurring revenue that we have because we do have affiliates on recurring products.
So that is awesome.
And I mean, when you get you know, this payment every month and then it keeps growing and growing,

that is a pretty awesome feeling.
So for me, it's more like an ongoing work from the tools that I use every day when I build memberships and you know, websites, and if it makes me money,

that is awesome.
If it doesn't, it's OK.
It's not like going to be like you said, the end of the world, but definitely icing on the cake.


For us.
So we are still

you know, big into affiliate, we believe in it, but we won't have all our whole business you know, on that.
And so one thing that I really liked that you said is that you were working on turning your business into you know,

talking about a lifestyle, like less one on one work and then more of maybe the consulting and maybe selling your online courses.
Is that what you meant? Yeah,

you know, you and I were chatting right before this call and I mentioned my family's going out of town for two days.
This will be the first time that wasn't planned that I've ever missed a vacation.
And it's just

right now we're in about a 20 day period that is like, it's our year you know? Like a large…I mentioned diversifying, but 15 to 20% of our revenue will be made in the next 20 days.
And so that for us,

that is a large chunk, and I've just got stuff to do.
And it didn't make sense for me to go on this.
Um, I would like to get to you know, the point where that's not the case and I love the fact

you know, I work from home, so working from home means that I do have a certain level of discipline, I do have office hours, but it also means that sometimes at one o'clock in the afternoon, when my daughter asks me to go play soccer,

it means I can.
Yeah, To me that's lifestyle.
It's not about not working hard.
I work hard, you know? Um, it's about having that freedom.
You know? I think there's this like,

if you… I've never done this.
But I might try to because I'm kind of curious.
I would bet, could be wrong, that if you Google lifestyle images or lifestyle entrepreneur,

lifestyle business and then went to Google images, what you're going to see is the cliche guy sitting on a chair on the beach with his top out.
I bet.

I think that's something to aspire to, that

to me, that's not necessary.
I think it's kind of like people thinking OK, what I'm going to do in six months is b an Olympic sprinter.
I don't know if that's… I don't know if you're going from couch potato.
Like I'm not going to be an Olympic sprinter in six months.
I'll just put it that way.

You know what I can do though, is I could get a lot faster and I can learn you know, to run faster and get in better shape.
And I think for me, lifestyle business is more about that no one is telling me what to do and when to do it.

Lifestyle business is that you know, I'll give an example.
My team call everyday, from 11:30 to approximately 12:15, I do while walking.
I walk two miles everyday while I'm on the phone.
All of my consulting calls,

if they're not video, I do while walking.
There're days, there's one day a week where I log over 10 miles walking while working.
That's a lifestyle business.


People don't get to walk 10 miles a day.

For me lifestyle business is, pretty good chunk of the days I eat lunch with my family.
I very rarely do not eat dinner with them.
I'd say 363 days a year I eat dinner with my family.

Um, in fact, the only days… Actually it's a little bit less than that because I have a group I go to some Tuesday nights but that's a whole different story.
You know,

lifestyle business is to me, it's that.
It's not necessarily…If that's your aspiration in life is to sit on a beach and work on a laptop that's fine.

To me it's actually that

like when I am working, I'm working.
I've got you know, two monitor…I've got three monitors going here, working on a site and like, for some number of hours.
It might be four

some days, it might be eight some days.
And there's occasionally about 10 days in the year where it's like 15.
I'm all in.
And I'm not thinking about anything but work.
But the second that I click off,

I'm done.
For me a lifestyle business… I'll tell you this fun fact about me, I don't own a smartphone.
In 2007 I was one of the first probably 50, 000 people to get an iPhone.
I had the original iPhone and we pre ordered it from

I think it was from Sprint at the time and or AT&T.
We pre ordered from AT&T because they were that exclusive.
And we got it like, we were one of the very first people in our company we had iPhones.

I noticed something ironic though.
Is that like, I would leave the office at six o'clock, but I'd still be working at nine o'clock.
I'd still be working at 10 o'clock.

And I was single so it didn't matter, then I got married.

She didn't like that.
I didn't like that.
So I literally threw my… Granted I probably should have been less dramatic about it and you know, could have given it to somebody.
But I literally threw it into the woods.
And I have… I don't think it's down here,

I got it.
It's upstairs so it won't ring in the middle of this.
I've got a dumb phone that can't even access the Internet.
Nobody texts me.
People know better.
I get like,

one text every six months and it's usually from like my uncle who's fording me a text.
So when I'm off, I'm off.
And that to me is what lifestyle business is.
So I think there can be this misconception

that says lifestyle business has to fit into this box.
If I travel the world and I do this, it can, it just doesn't have to.
I think that's exactly on point.
Exactly how I feel.
Lifestyle to me, lifestyle entrepreneurship is whatever you want it to be.

And for some people, it's going to be you know, working only in the mornings and having their afternoons off.
For some people it's working their butt off for six months and then taking six months off.
So it's not necessarily being on the beach

with your laptop.
Actually if I am on the beach, I don't want to be with my laptop.

Right? I mean, that's me.

It's hard.
That's hard.
You don't get much done and what I'm learning right now as we are trying to be more efficient with that lifestyle because

you know, we feel we've been working too much, why you feel like you left a 9 to 5 for 24/7, because there is always something to doing business.
And when you're passionate about what you're doing then you always want to up level and go to the next step.
There is always something to do.

So what I found is really uh, lifestyle entrepreneurship is more about setting some rules and saying, you know, "This is the boundaries within I'm going to be working and this is the life I want to have.
" And that means you have some strict rules

meaning that when you work, your focused and you are productive and it's about working smarter not harder.
It's not about more hours.
It's about focused hours on your goal.
And you can work

actually a lot less if you are able to do that.
And I know it's hard.
It's a big mindsets shift that I had to happen because we've been in this business for 12 years now.
But it's only

we've only been like successful and being able to live from it the last six years.
And now we are working towards you know, we're are you know, making the money, now we're working towards

how we can make even more get to the next.
But again, having that lifestyle back and being able to go whenever we want to go just like he said.
And sometimes it's not possible.
That's also part of you know,

being a business owner.
It's sometimes there are you know, times where you can't go.
There are things you have to do.
I think to me it's key.
There is not like a definition to lifestyle.
It's whatever you wanted to be.

And that's the freedom.
To get your freedom, you have to make those rules in place.
Like I get to work, and then I get to have the fun.
Right? Yeah, it's the irony.
Craig Ballantine talks about this.

Ah, you know, the perfect life formula.
I just finished the book again like a week ago.

Okay great, so he talks about this.
Yeah, that discipline equals freedom.
I just read

where is it? Right here actually.
I don't know if you have the art of power by but not by Tom about Thomas Jefferson.
And it talks in there about how his life was so structured and how that gave him freedom.

you know, like, I can't work at the beach.
So went to Florida for a few weeks earlier this year.
We go there in the winter to escape the winters here in Indiana.

you know, everyday I'd sit down about 10, 10:30 and I'd try to work.
And by about 11, 11:30 I would think of my family out there on the beach having fun.
I mean

it's 82 degrees in the middle of February.
It's gorgeous.
The beaches started to empty, you know, less crowded.
I'm like, I can't do this.
So I finally, after about a week of trying to do that, I actually called one of the guys that work for me

and I just said, "Hey listen, um, I'm available if you need to call me, but just know I'm not going to get any work done.
I'm just taking this next week off.
" You know?

That's freedom.
We did that after Christmas.
We finished one of our big launches with Michael Hyatt.
It ended December 15th.
We had some loose ends to tie up, and we said

"OK, from December 19th till January 4th, our company is closed.
" We're just completely closed.
On January 3rd, no, on January 4th at 7 p.
m, I call on the guys in my team and I said, "I need another week.

I just need another week.
So, um, I need you to take over.
Like do a few things, feel free to take off if you want to as well.
I'm just going to take off.
You know,

I need another week to just rest.
" And there's some stuff, you know, I was so tired the first week of that two weeks.
I started relaxing the second week and by the third week,

I was like, now I've got… There's actually some errands I need to run and some things I need to do for the family.
So I'm going take that week off as well.
And I did.

And it was like, I realized how many people have ever had that conversation.
Out of 100 people, less than two get to just decide at 7 p.
m on Sunday that they're going to take off next five days.

That's lifestyle.

Like my lifestyle said, I need another week off.
Yeah, that's the freedom.
That's the real freedom of being able to do that.
I mean, we are, you know, this summer

we are not really taking you know, vacation off.
But we left for four days and we just decided to go and then we might decide to go, you know, we're thinking about it again, because we can.
Because we can move our schedule around

and that's what I call you know, like true freedom.
So it's not like you're not working, you know, like you don't have anything you know, you don't do anything and the business runs on this own, that would be nice but you know,

we're not there.
I want to say something real quick.

Again, I'm all about busting misconceptions and myths.
That's what I do for a living in a sense.

on occasion…So I have this gut feeling there's people watching and well that's great that you get to go to Florida for three weeks.
It's great that you get to do that.
But like, I'm just starting my business.

Trust me, I've been there, done that.
When I started my first business, it was seven days week, 14 15 hours a day.
But you know what? Here's the thing, first of all I loved every minute of it.
I was…
Nobody was forcing me to do it.
Secondly, it's like we have a big product launch coming up and so right now is busy.
But you know what? I chose this time.
I chose the month of August for this launch.
Nobody else chose it for me.

It was on our calendar like me and my team, we picked it based on what worked best for us.
You know, we had a guy having a baby, so he was going to be out for a few weeks and then this you know,

and then Labor Day kind of affected it.
But it was like, no, we're going to do it.
This is when we're going to do it.
But when I first started my business like, I still had this freedom and that freedom was that I did calls on walks.
That on…Yes

I was working ridiculous hours, but I got to choose what I was doing and I got to choose who I worked with.
I occasionally did work while watching a basketball game and

you know, just be honest, like, how many of us while working in an office get to watch basketball while working? Not very many.
You know? And it was a little… It was a lot less…It was weird.

I still had that freedom because I chose to grow.
There were three of us, to get that business so that within two years we had 52 employees and $18 million in revenue.
We chose that.

Could we have…Could I have made it easier on myself and worked less hours and maybe we would have gotten there in three years? Sure.
Probably could have.
We chose to do that.

Nobody made me.

At no point did anybody ever say, "You have to do this.
" And you know what? Sometimes being a business owner means, like I remember the night… The day I didn't sleep for 36 hours because our server crashed.
That's sucked.

I didn't choose that technically.
That's about the only time I didn't choose something.
I think it's a great point.
I mean, one of the things that I am realizing now that maybe we could have done differently at least for me,

I don't know for Olivier because he's so passionate about what he is doing that work doesn't really feel like work sometimes.
I noticed.

So it could be like seven days.
You noticed?

Yeah, so and for me it's a bit different because I'm also a mom.
Well he's a dad but you know, I am a mom and you know, with my kids at home I want to spend more time with them.
It's a bit different.
I have other things

you know, much more things to do.
You know many more things to do than him you know, around.
And so for me, I think like also when you get started, Uh, you know, setting up limits like you said and rewarding yourself for the work that you've done.

And that's something we didn't do for a long time.
So like when we moved back from from the US, I don't know if you know that we used to live in California.
So when we moved back,

we could have spent… We could have taken like, two weeks off or even a month of vacation.
Because we were working like crazy in the US and we did not.
The reason we did not is because we didn't have a job.

We didn't have money coming.
So we had money in the bank, because we had sold everything but we didn't take that time to reward ourselves for all the work, past work done for 10 years.

And I think that was a big mistake.
So working hard is s great but rewarding yourself with simple things.
It's just sometimes spending time with friends and family, doesn't have to be spending money but it's rewarding and it's encouraging

to You know, it's like to keep you going.
Because you know, you get the reward you know? And that's something I think we should have done.
And now we regret it that we didn't do that.
It feels like you listened to the podcast that's not coming out till tomorrow.

I know you didn't cause nobody's listened to it.

I have a podcast episode that literally comes out tomorrow like as we're recording this and the title of the podcast is let's celebrate.
And it's a call to entrepreneurs, we have this habit where most of us are achievers

and most of us are not satisfied.
It's what my friend Hunter Ian calls a healthy discontent.
You know like…You know what is funny, I'll just say this and then I'll get back to that point.
I remember when my first company,

when we hit $1000 in a day.
I remember what we did.
We played KC and the Sunshine bands celebration song.
We danced around, we stayed up until it was 11:45 at night refreshing the stats page.
We almost crashed our server refreshing it so much.
And we hit $1000 and it was like, Yeah.

I remember when we hit $2000 in a day.
I remember when we hit $5000 in a day and again, by that time we had like 30 employees.
We put on party hats, we played that…Like the company shut down for the rest of the day and

you know, like the company shut down the next day because it happened late at night.
But we were calling each other like waking people up at 10:30.
You know?
We were young company.
Everybody was so excited.

Cracked pen some champagne.
You know what I don't remember? I don't remember when we hit 10, 000.
I don't remember when we hit 20, 000.
I don't remember when we hit 50, 000.
I don't remember.

We had a few of them.
I don't remember the very first time we had $100, 000 in sales in one single day.
I don't remember that day.
We lost that culture of celebration.
Here's the thing.

So this this came about because of two things.
A guy that I heard speak the other day and our daughter back in June flipped the calendar to July, looked at the calendar and on a random Tuesday, I think it was July 27th

she wrote, I love you day.
And you could say, "Well, it's Valentine's Day right? "
This is a day that she made up.
This is I love you day.
It's just to celebrate the people that you love.
Cause technically Valentine's Day is a romantic day.

Just a day to…Do we have a day to celebrate… Well we have a day to celebrate mothers, we have a day to celebrate fathers, do we have a day just to celebrate everybody that we love? Technically

She just made up a day.
And we went out to dinner.
She was looking forward to it all month.
So the anticipation, there's a studies that show that actually if you look at the brain chemistry of children before Christmas and on Christmas Day,

there's positive feelings in their brain.
That there's more dopamine in the days leading up to Christmas released as they think about Christmas than there actually is on Christmas.
On Christmas,

Since there's this anticipation and then there's this excitement and then we celebrate it.
We make a big deal of it.
And so last night, no exaggeration.
Last night, after midnight,

my wife and I were talking, and I
said, "I want to put it on something on the calendar.
So, you know, we already have Christmas, we have Thanksgiving, we got Halloween, we got you know,

we got stuff that's…Halloween is big for us cause we throw a huge Halloween party.
We've got our birthdays and stuff but like, here's what I want.
I want to put on the calendar a day called Work from Home Day and we celebrate, just one day a year, we actually celebrate.

Go on celebrate the fact that we get to work from home.
I want to put on there, I want to put on a… We're going to make up a day called Little Sister Day.
Or big sister day.

Just going to celebrate because our daughters a big sister.
So that means we need to have a little brother day later in the year and then we were like, "We're going to put on there,

we're going to put on their curly hair day.
" Because everyone else in my family, my wife and my two kids have awesome blonde curly hair and I got stuck with this.
You know,

we're going to put on there…
Um, there was…Oh, we're going to celebrate the day that we started our business.
We're going to make a big deal.
Like we're going to celebrate the anniversary of our business.
And then we're going to do this, this and we're going to celebrate that.

We're just going to put these on the calendar.
And we're just going to have celebrations because today we're going to celebrate the fact that we work from home.

Like nobody takes the time to do that because we're all assuming like, I know what I'm doing on September 1st.
September 1st the day after our launch is, I'm thinking about the next launch.

Yeah, exactly.
We don't take the time.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
You have to be big things.
You want to celebrate your 1st $10, 000 or $100, 000? Celebrate that.
Celebrate that.
If you've quit your job.

If you quit your full time job and you work on your own now, don't ever forget the date.
Oh, forget that date.
But that down in your calendar and sell it.
Make a big deal out of every year.

Celebrating about to a fancy restaurant.
Open some champagne.
Do whatever's you need to do.
Take it off.
Where? A party hat.
I don't know, but celebrate the day that you quit your full time job.
That's a big day.

We were talking about this actually, uh, I think a couple of days ago, week ago, when we were… Maybe two weeks ago with Olivier, because he was saying, "You know what?

Last year when we decided to take two weeks off, which two weeks off for us is a lot, because I do a lot of…I have a lot of meetings with leads and clients so you know,

it's like two weeks where people cannot take appointments and that translates into less money.
And he said that months before, he said, "You worked like crazy.
" This was our biggest month.

Why? Because there was this anticipation that we were going on vacation, we we're going on vacation.
So I was all pumped up to get things done and said he was like, you know,

like it's we never get as much done as when we have, at least to me, something to look forward to.
Yeah, I tend to do this now.
It's like when I'm doing this, it has a purpose.

It's not just about making money.
It's that freedom that it's going to give me to go and see my kids that are on vacation right now if I want to.
Like, if we wanted, we could take the car and go now.
That's the lifestyle that we wanted to be able to have.

You know, being home when the kids get from school and stuff like that.
Definitely celebrating, we don't do enough of that.
But, uh, I look forward to the… Is it a podcasts or a video? It's a podcast? which,

actually, it will be a video because everything I do has three forms.
Most of you probably know that but in case you don't know, that's the secret to content creation is, I record a video, I strip the audio,

the audio becomes the…Sometimes it's video first and podcast, sometimes podcast first then video.
Um, and then the audio, if it has good reaction, we get some good vibes from the community, that is taken and turned into a blog post by somebody on my team who basically doesn't transcribe it but puts it into written format.
Now it's three for one.

Technically, you could do, I don't do this for various reasons, but if you really wanted, you could do live video into a YouTube video into a podcast into a blog post.
So, yeah.

We want to create a crap ton of content over the next year.
Here we go.
Yeah, Recycle.
Recycle your content.

So actually it's a great position because the reason I mentioned that is because I've seen that you have the video, the audio and then you have the copy, which I like to read but

I also like to watch the video.
I get distracted.
I tend to get distracted by the audio so there is a little bit of everybody.
But there is one particular video that I really, really liked.

And that's the one that's called, Can Affiliate Marketing Change the World? And I really encourage people to go and listen to it.
And we'll share the link definitely.

So let me just read what I read because I constantly remember.
It said, "You help business owners leverage the power to grow their business.
" Why affiliate marketing?

Can you share with us the power of being an affiliate and running an affiliate program? And is that for every type of business and when is a good time to start? I know when people get started with an online course

or a membership product, they want to start an affiliate program and then they want you to get as many affiliates as possible.
And I said, "No, make sure it works first,

you have some members.
" So if you can tell us a bit about that aspect.
Going back to business here.
So you mentioned that video and I mean the gist of it yeah,

we'll definitely you know, I encourage you to link to it because… But my premises like okay, changing the world's a pretty big concept, but it's like, how can affiliate marketing do that?

Well, if you recommend a product to somebody and it transforms their life, you have completely transformed the world and that's a pretty big freaking deal.
And then scale that to hundreds or thousands of people and you've really

you know, put a dent in the universe as Steve Jobs said.
As far as um, you know, who can do affiliate marketing, I mean it doesn't work for every business.
I'll put it this way,

I've never encountered a business that it doesn't work for.

We have students, so I mentioned, we teach how to do affiliate marketing, but we also teach how to run affiliate programs.
On the how to run affiliate program side, we've got every niche you could possibly conceive of.
On the affiliate marketing side,

like how to make money with affiliate marketing, in our No Product, No Problem course, I mean, there are some of the most nichey… We have a lady who's in there who's killing it.
Her entire niche,

this is all she does is traveling to Key West, Florida.
That's very specific.
Think for a second, think for a second here.
Here's the world, right? There's Key West.

Okay, that's it.
That little tiny dot is key west.
It's not even that big, Okay? It's like half… I should have used the more pointy part of that marker.
That's how small

her niche is.
She's doing really well with affiliate marketing.
Real estate agents, fitness instructors, people who blog about raw foods.
We've got raw foodies.

What do we have? Teachers.
People who teach teachers.
Literally I mean, it's less than a 1/4 of the people in either of our courses or what you would call internet marketers.
They all have website.

Actually know what?

Not even every student in No product, No Problem starts off with a website.
I just got an email today because what one of things I do with all of our new students is I looked them up, find their website,

read about him for 3 or 4 minutes and just record a quick personal video.
You know, takes me about seven minutes to do and that's one of the many reasons why our retention rates are like 99.

Um, but I could not find this lady's website.
For some time I had not been able to find this lady's website so emailed I emailed her and I recorded this video and said, ""Hey,

I can't find your website so all I know about you is what I found on linkedIn.
Looks like you're in Chicago.
" She's like, "Yeah, I don't have a website yet.
" So we even have people without websites yet that are getting into this.

And that's when I… It's a great time to get into it because you want to start affiliate marketing like day one.
Here's the thing.
If a store opened up across town, it could be a furniture store,

it could be WallMart, you know, it could be Target, it could be whatever.
They all have one thing in common and that is they sell stuff on the first day.
But we've been told as content creators that were supposed to create content and give,

give, give, give, give.
There's a book that's ironically, it's propping up the bottom of my monitor right now because I had to lift my monitors on a whim today because they're interfering with my laptop WiFi.
Nobody knows why.

Craziest thing.
The channels are interfering.
So actually I had to prop my monitors up two inches and I don't have anything else that props them up two inches.
And that book is jab,

jab, jab, right hook and the premise is, you know, you jab, you jab, you jab.
Like no, I think… I'm not saying you come out with that right hook, but you need to have stuff…You need to condition your audience to expect to buy stuff

because if you're running an online business, if you're running a hobby, hobby blog, I don't really care what you do.
But if you're running an online business, you have to get this into your ethos, into your mind that businesses make money.

It's OK.
Walmart doesn't apologize for selling stuff.
A furniture store doesn't apologize for selling stuff.
You have to condition your audience to buy, to click and to buy.

And here's the thing.
If you don't do that early on, then you've conditioned them never to buy.
To get free stuff.
Expect free stuff.
You're going to get burned out because you're not making any money.
Businesses monetize

but early on, you don't have a product because you don't even know what your audience wants to buy.
Affiliate marketing is a great way to get into that because you can promote other people's stuff.

You don't have to spend 100 hours making a course or product.
You don't have to manufacture in China.
You promote stuff without creating it and you go, "Interesting.
My audience bought this at this price point

but they didn't buy that at that price point.
What does that tell me about my audience? " And you start to learn stuff about your audience.
Because I could tell you all the demographic information about your audience right now, you still don't know what they're going to have a financial transaction about.

And here's the key.
I'm not talking about somebody's worth as a human being, but to your business, an email subscriber is worth this.
The only thing that's worth anything is financial transactions.
So what I'm saying, is a person is worthless to your business,

if there isn't a financial transaction at some point and affiliate marketing is the best way early on.
Now the flip side of that, you asked, should somebody have affiliates on day one for their um,

company? I also just released a podcast episode ironically about this.
Cause I just got asked this question by Elle Cole who's an interior designer.
She's like, "Well,

my product launches later this year.
Should I have affiliates? "
Like no.
Not on day one.
So what we recommend is that you launch internally first, then you…So depending upon your list size, your audience size,

you might segment your audience.
So let's just say you have a list of 1000 people, what I would personally do is launch to about 300 people, then another 300 people in the last 400 or you know,

whatever 333, it doesn't matter.
I would do three launches separated.
The start point separated by about 4 to 7 days, so you can learn stuff as you go and you can tweak and you can change.
Then I would take a little bit of a break and I would step back

and go okay, let's just say you had a sales video.
And for whatever reason, like everyone's dropping off your sales video at the 7 minute and 14 second mark.
Then you need to go and look at your sales video.

A sales video redo is not something you can typically do in a few days.
It might take you a couple of weeks, so you take a little bit of time off.
Then you start running cold traffic, meaning Facebook or linkedIn

adds to your offer.
You run those.
You just keep running them.
You know, evergreen.
10 people a day, 50 people a day and you start learning stuff.
You start optimizing.
Everyday you're getting better because most of the tweaks you're going to make, I'll give you an example.

We tweaked one of our webinar registration pages the other day from how much I made in one month to how much I made in one week.
It's technically the same number.
If you multiply the weekly number by 52 and divide it by 12 you get the same number,

right? But that's you know, it was just messaging.
We went from like an 87 to a 95% registration, rate.
Opt in rate on the webinar page.
That's huge.
It's 8% gain.
You know, means massive with that little tweak.

So a lot of times it's just those little things that you're doing as you go along that you're learning.
And so you do that too cold traffic.
Then you work with a couple of affiliates one on one.
These are people who promote you because it's you.

So I want like Natalie, you're going to work with Natalie's friends.
Not like this guy over here who's asking, "What's the EPC on this offer? " No.
You do not want to work with them at first.
You want to work with people who are doing it for you.

They don't care if they make 4 thousand, 7 thousand, you know, 9 thousand.
If you have a 4% conversion rate or a 6% conversion rate.
They're doing it for you.
You're now optimizing and then you rinse and repeat that as needed.

The cool thing about this is this is not like step one, then step two, then step three, then step four, you can do these sequentially and there can be some overlap.
And the typical process takes anywhere from 3 to 6 months.

I've seen it done quicker.
I've seen it done longer.
I've seen people who want to get it really dialed.
Then they take a year before they bring on affiliates, you know?

So for us, we've done this so many times that for us it took about seven months you know, with our product.
Like after seven months I was like, Cool, we're ready.
Let's you know,

let's start bringing them on and here we are.
We've got our big launch coming up but we've been through that process and optimized it so that I can predict what this is going to do.
I know this is a profitable thing for our affiliates

and we're comfortable with it but you cannot do that on day one.
I mean, this is awesome what you just shared.
I have never heard of it.
I mean, you know, segmenting like 300 by 300.

That is super small.
Because you know, it gives you time like you said to do the small tweaks.
Because you don't want to change everything either because otherwise you don't know what works what doesn't work,

right? And if you know, if this is your fifth product, you can accelerate that.
You have a fifth product and you've got a list of 20, 000 people, I might launch it to a list of 2000 and then might just do the next 18, 000.

You know? Um and I might start…You're going to notice the process as you go through is going to be hyper accelerated.
Um, you know, you might even just go ahead and put the launch date with your affiliates on the calendar five months later and you're fine.
It's just that if it's your very first product and you just I mean,

the reality is like we learn.
The thing about marketing is I learn the craziest thing every time I do a campaign.
I think I'm pretty smart at this.
And the reality is the only reason why I'm any good at this is because I'm willing to be wrong half the time.

That's the thing.

Like public school private school doesn't matter.
The modern education system is a terrible precursor to running a small business because it teaches you that if you're wrong, you fail.

Yeah, absolutely.
I think about it.
I'm wrong I mean…of the split test I've run, 50% of the time, maybe 49, I was probably right.
51% of time.
49% of time I was wrong about what was going to win, A versus B.

Does that make me a terrible marketer? No, cause guess what? It makes you smart actually.
Everything we're running right now was a winner.
We're not running losers anymore because we've picked the winners.


But think about it, modern education tells me that if I only get it right 51% of the time, that's an F like, that's a bad F.
You're the dumb kid in class.

you're right.
So apparently I'm the dumb kid in class and yet it's working all right.
And I think that's one of the reasons why also people have this mental block.
Have this fear of failure.

It's not just about what people are going to think but it's because we've been conditioned to think that failing is bad.
I mean in US it's a bit better because you know, you know,

we've been in US so we know that spirit where it's actually to encourage people like when you start a business and it fails and you start another one we don't have problems with the bank,

right? Well try that in France.
When you fail, you suck.
So go find a job because they're like here failing is not seen as you know, you fail until you succeed, right?

So it's not being seen as as a step, you know, towards you know, achieving something.
It's more like well, you were wrong, you know? Do something else.

So I mean, I totally agree with you

and that's the reason why so many people have this mental blocks.
This fear of doing because they don't want to fail.

So let me see if I have something else here before we wrap up.

I think we kind of talked about this.
I wanted you to share how you managed to balance life and business? Uh, but do you have anything else you want to add? You know,

I do have… I want to make sure we don't forget this.
Put together a special page for your audience Natalie.
com/lifestyle and I've got two things we've actually… One of which we've never given away before.

the 1st one I've got an ebook that we wrote called, The 10 Benefits of Affiliate Marketing Before You Have a Product.
This is what we've been talking about.
You don't know what your audience is willing to buy

and we go through these benefits.
It's not…There's actually some that I've never shared before that are really powerful benefits.
The 2nd one, I've just finished working on this actually last week.
And it's a free report we put together about how I made over $10, 000 passive income in one month from a single page of my website.

So mattmcwilliams.
Go get both of those.
And this is my thank you for having me on Natalie.
Well thank you so much.
I will definitely put the links.
The links will be in the emails as well.

And I will also put a link to mattmcwilliams.
com where we can see your podcasts and videos and how you actually organized this.
I mean, we can really learn from this.
I really loved it.

Uh, But to answer your question, Yeah.
I want to answer your question.
How do I balance business and life? I think it's.
I mean and I don't mean this in the wrong way.
I think it's actually a faulty question.

I don't think there's a way to balance.

They're not balanced.
Like today, they're massively out of balance.
And in February, they were massively out of balance because… In December they were massively out of balance because I didn't think about work for three weeks.

I think to sort of answer the underlying question, I think that for me it is the rules.
For instance, I have a rule um, four days a week, my hard cut off is 4:30.
I mean 5:30.
That is my hard cut off.
And what that means is typically at 5:24, I'm working so feverishly it's not even funny.

And at 5:30 I go,
{loud exhale} If you ever watched one of those cooking shows where they have like 30 minutes to make a dish and they go hands off? At 5:30 it's like hands off and then I go upstairs for 10 minutes, I put on some white noise and I meditate just to bring me down from that.

So then at 5:42 or so, I'm all there for my family.
That's one.
It sounds really crazy but that's like No I think it's super smart.
So from 8 family has me except for one day a week,

from 5:40 or so until 8:30.
You know bed time.
I'm there for almost three hours with them.
I don't miss a soccer practice.
I don't miss a soccer game.
I've never missed one.
I've never missed almost anything important in this section

literally the first time I've ever missed a family vacation.
It's just a 36 hour vacation so I don't feel as bad about it.
It's just it's really just setting those boundaries you know?

And it's about.
The other thing is like, I think you have to remove the guilt from both sides.
I cannot feel guilty when I do this interview that that means I can't spend time with my family.
And I cannot feel guilty thinking that the world is going to come to an end

if after this interview I were to go play soccer for 30 minutes and didn't answer that question from my team.
I can't feel guilty either way.
If you remove guilt and shame from the equation, then you really will find that over the course of a month, there's balance.

The other thing is yeah, like I just said, don't look at things on a daily basis and go, "I Worked 12 hours today.
My life is so out of balance.
" Absolutely.

Look at things like… Pan out and look at things

maybe by two months at a time, you know? And it ultimately look and see was life balanced.
You had 3 4 day weekends in that two month period.
You also had five nights where you worked at night.
Was that balanced? Well overall,

it's pretty balanced.
So just take the guilt out of both sides.

That's the biggest thing you can do for yourself and for your sake.
And I think that it's important that whether you're making money or not, even if your… Especially I want to say,

if you're getting started, to just put this rules from day one.
It's not because you're not making money that you cannot do that.
Otherwise…Because running a business is running a marathon, right?

So you're in it for the long run.
So drill these rules and they're hard, like you said, the guilt because we're not making money and stopping at 5:30 like you said you know, that can be difficult for people

but that's critical for your sanity you know? Family, your family life and for being in it in the long run basically.
You got it.
Yeah, well thank you so much Matt.

It was so nice to meet you and to chat with you.
I think we got some great stuff about lifestyle, affiliate marketing.
I definitely want to check your ebook when it's ready.
Well it should be ready now,

by the time we hear.
uh, thank you so much again.
It's mattmcwilliams.
com/lifestyle and I will definitely put a link.


Thank you so much.
Thank you and tell Olivier

I say hello.
I definitely will.
All right, take care.
Bye bye.

Bye bye.

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