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Finding your passion through trials with Kim Doyal

Interview with Kim Doyal

Welcome everyone.
Nathalie Doremieux here from New Software Marketing.
Today, we have another guest.
Her name is Kim Doyal, and she is The WordPress Chick.
She's a podcaster,

a coach, WordPress wizard and a proud Genesis junkie, and co-founder off the LeadSurveys web app.
It took Kim five years as an entrepreneur to truly understand the power of showing up as her.
In 2013,

Kim launched the WordPress Chick podcast with a commitment to show up and do things her own way.
She runs her business according to one fundamental principle; if it's not fun,

I'm not doing it.
So, welcome, Kim.
Thank you, Nathalie.
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
I'm excited that you're here as well, and to share your story and to inspire people into building this business around their lifestyle.
So, the first question I'd like to ask you is,

how did you become an entrepreneur? I'll try to do a CliffsNotes version of this but I've always been a little bit of an entrepreneur.
I mean, Like way back in 1998, I owned a scrapbook retail store, and, you know,

I've done, and I've done a few things like that.
But when I started, my online business will actually be…It's almost 10 years in March of 2018.
It's 10 years.

because I was widowed in 2003.
I lost my husband in a car accident, and our kids were really little.
They were like six and two, and I was working full-time outside of the house.
And it just was not really a quality of life that I could do.

And so, you know, fast forward, I kept working, um, for about five years, and then I had a little bit of a cushion in 2008, and I had found this whole Internet thing.
I had gone to a conference on real estate,

of all things, but it was kind of a Wealth Expo.
Believe it or not, Trump spoke, but that's another story.
Um, and, Uh, but I saw this, um, it was like a little like an offshoot, and it was an Internet marketer,

and he was talking about, you know, writing e-books and selling them, and making money.
And so I just decided that's it.
And in 2008, I jumped full force into it.
I thought I was gonna be an information marketer.

I'd heard a WordPress, didn't… I mean, it was still pretty young at the time.
Um, but yeah, I I just decided I'm going all in, and here we are today.
And, you know, it's…
when you talk about the lifestyle and the quality of life, I was willing to do whatever it took to have that because I was in retail management before.
And that's 60 hours a week plus commuting and,

you know, forget the last three months of the year.
There's no life, and my kids were too little.
I needed to be a [inaudible].
I mean, absolutely.
I think that especially when you get started, I mean,

the goal is to try to get to that lifestyle but there is also, you know, work that needs to be done at the beginning, you know.
There is a bit of hustle that needs to happen at the beginning because, I mean,

you need to try things and see what is going to work.
So, how did you exactly get started, you know, in this online? Did you…Did you start, you know, as a WordPress tech person,

or did you start, you know, um, selling informational product? No.
I wasn't technical it all.
I'm not kidding you, like I have a very creative side to me.
Like I was an art major for a while.

I've done a lot of that stuff like the scrapbook store.
I had some stickers published I designed, but I… so, I'd come across…I've always been a big consumer of audio content.
So, when I used to commute,

I was always listening to CDs and books on tape in my car.
Like I had cassette tapes.
Yeah, I know.
So, I was listening to … right? I was listening to one about building a speaking empire.
So, I always wanted to speak,

and so it's fun that I have a podcast, right? But on this CD set, there was an internet marketer.
So, that was kind of like the first, like, what is this? Like people, you know?

So, I had been listening to that, and that's when I kind of started looking into it.
And so I think when I made the… and It was like a 12-week course.
And I was just committed to showing up every single week, and doing the work, and connecting with people in the forums, and from there,

because I was like, Oh, I want a website.
And so, from there I found somebody that kind of had his own CMS, but then someone else was like, "Oh, do WordPress.
" So, I'd had another chick site, and so I'd had someone design it.

I thought I was gonna make money with Google AdSense because AdSense was still pretty like you could do it then, um.
But it was through all of this navigating and trying things that I found WordPress.
I grabbed the domain name before I knew what I was doing.
So then I reached out through eLance, and I was looking for help with WordPress and Google AdSense,

And so I connected with somebody in the States, and so I said, "Look, can I pay you for an hour of your time every week? " And it was like 35 bucks or something.
But we would just get on Skype, and I'd bring questions.
And I remember the first time I saw the style sheet, and I was like, "So if I change

the text color like that will change the color? And he was like, "Yeah.
" And I was like, "All right, I think I can do this.
" And so it was just kind of stepping my way into it.
Again, my intention was always to do information marketing.

I had no desire to do websites and stuff, but I started.
I was having some tile work done in my house, and so I looked at their website, and it was horrible.
And I was like,

"Hey, you guys want to barter? " Right? I wanted more tile done in another bathroom- That's awesome….
you know? But even then I was playing with Joomla and stuff at the time, but that was really the beginning of this.

But my intention was to be an information marketer.
I never thought I was going to, you know, the WordPress stuff.
I mean, I went full in with that at a certain point.
I kind of developed an agency, and then I was coaching other web devs, and I'm not the technical,

I'm not the coder.
So then I had an outsourcing team, and then I built an outsourcing company.
But still, Nathalie, honestly, that was never what I wanted to be doing.

That's interesting that like through experimenting, like thinking you're going to do, you know, one thing, and then it leads to something else.
We really have to be open to the opportunities basically, uh, that come,

right? So, originally, I mean, you went into that to build your own, and then you found the opportunity, and turns out … so it turns out you, at some point, gave up, you know,

your original idea to go full on with that.
Was it because, like you, you really felt like this is something that you felt passionate about? About helping people? Was it something that felt easier

Maybe to implement, and make money off? What was your thinking? It was more of the money, it was the money piece, truthfully, right? I had responsibilities, and that makes sense to everybody.

Oh, you build websites, and it's like… I would say, probably after the first three years of doing it, I didn't want to do it.
It was like I kept… I was always trying to work on my stuff, right?

And it was a little bit…It was better when I started hiring people because I could then focus on, you know, the consultation, the marketing piece of it with the clients.
And so… But it was…
you know, hindsight's 20/20.
It was through the doing of all of those things that I kept getting clearer and clearer that this is not what I wanna do.
And truthfully, it was…
When I launched the podcast, I did that with zero expectations other than I need to have fun.
I'm tired of this.
I love podcasts.
I love video content.
I am a huge consumer, and I'm like,

I've got something to say.
I want a podcast.
And so, that was hands down the best thing I did for my business because of the relationships and connections.
I think, you know,

I really think that, you know, from talking to all these people that the best ideas and the most successful people are the people that actually start doing something not for the money but just because it's fun.

like you did the podcast without thinking, "How am I going to monetize this? " Right? And because you did, by being you, like you said, it was really important to you.
I mean,

first, I think it's so much easier to try just be yourself than just to pretend to be somebody else.
But, uh, just by doing that, it opened up doors for you on things that might have never happened if you hadn't run the podcast.
So, can you share,

like, how did you transition from doing one-on-one, and you realized you did not like that, and hiring…I guess hiring and delegating, right? So, was there like… I mean, I know for some people,

hiring people and building a team is often scary because you could see, you know, a dip in your revenue.
So, what was your your thinking and how did you, how did you manage that? Maybe you didn't see a [inaudible] because you were just like cruising,

I don't know.
No, there were, there were dips.
I'm like, no, no, no.
It's, you know, a couple of things.
So, first of all, um, I started with just looking for part-time help on…It used to be

Odesk, right now it's Upwork.
So, I was looking for a coder for a little bit of help, and I connected with a guy who, he had a company, and it was all overseas, um,

Vietnam, I think.
And so, I was good.
I was doing enough work.
He said, "Let me hire somebody full-time for you.
" And I should have said no.
Honestly, Nathalie, I should have said, "I'm not willing to make that commitment, " because it got me more stuck in needing to justify his salary.

But it kept growing.
And then he found me a designer.
And then I found out he was taking too much.
So, both of those people came to work directly for me without the middle man.
They made raises, and I got to cut the salaries.

It was a win-win.
But I've been in management for a long time, so hiring was never an issue with me.
You know, all my years in retail, I opened a lot of stores, and I'd hired a lot of people.
So, I was like…
It wasn't that, but the problem is, as soon as you have those responsibilities, there's a completely different pressure that comes on you.
and that always… I felt stuck.
Truth be told,

I really felt stuck.
And so there were plenty of things.
And when I found Genesis, I kind of found a little niche within WordPress because I was teaching users how to use it.
Not coding,

not doing customizations, but I would teach just the blogging and marketing business side of how to use Genesis with their site.
So, I did a genesis for beginners course.
That did well, an e-book,

but still, all along that way, Nathalie, I was like, I want to stop doing service work.
I want to stop doing server work, service work, you know.
And… go ahead.

So, how did you transition? I mean, do you still have this agency? Do you still have people building websites for you, and you just do consulting? No? Nope.

Okay, so- It's all done.
So- The transition started a few years ago.
So, I joined a mastermind, which I believe in coaching and connections and all of that stuff.
And even if you end up…
I think a lot of people feel like, "Oh, I've spent so much money and I…" I learned something out of everything.
So, it's like, whatever.
And I made amazing connections, and I had some great success.
It was on Facebook ads,

and at the time, I wasn't doing any paid traffic.
And anybody who gets into this space, yes, my passion now is probably content, and creating content and getting content to work.

but do that but be willing to start some paid traffic.
It will get you there 10 times faster.
If you can, start with a budget.
And it was a friend of mine, and s o the Facebook ads, and it was literally….
So, this was 2013 maybe,

but it was, you know, I was able to spend like less than $200, I ended up getting over $10, 000 in coaching, you know.
Unless you're like a really super Facebook ninja, and in a good net…like,

good luck getting those numbers today.
But it opened my eyes, and that's how the outsourcing company evolved because I was coaching all these people who had similar businesses, but they didn't have developers and designers.

They needed help.
So, that opened my eyes.
And then I also shifted from… So, we still had that going, um, but then I, with the podcasting, so we started doing a done for you podcast service, right?

And I'll tell you what, that's way easier to sell than a website for six or seven grand.
I mean, it was very easy to sell because people see podcasting as… it's a little bit sexier than a website.
I think websites are becoming commodities.

People know they need to have them, but, you know, you can have beautiful websites that don't convert.
I've shifted a lot, you know, and so… But still, by the time I was doing that,

then I had, like, five grand a month in salaries because I had a project manager, and I had audio editors and stuff, and it was like I'm still building someone else's business is how it always felt right.
And so,

you know, I would say, was it two years ago? Then… It will be two years ago, January.
I hired a Facebook ad agency.
I had decided to leave the mastermind.
Again, I made some amazing relationships and friendships and connections.
I had some great adventures.

I drove a Ferrari.
Like really crazy, fun stuff.
It was expensive, though, and when I hired this Facebook agency, his name is Jason Hornung, and he completely shifted the way I looked at my business because he works with such integrity.
He's such a master of his craft,

and I got to go… Like they helped me…It was for all the podcasting service, right? He helped me craft the ads, and they did my avatar, and they did the research, and I went out and spent three days at their office, and we planned it all out.

But Jason really has this solid understanding of direct response marketing, which is totally something that most people in the Internet world just jump into.
I'm gonna do Facebook or Pinterest or content or this,

but it's like, if you understand marketing.
So, I've gone backwards, and I've become this just student of fundamentals.
And I started doing a daily email about a year ago, and I started… Like I spent a year just playing with headlines.

I will take a month to rewrite a webinar if I have to.
And I work on the messaging and the psychology, and why do people want to buy? And that's like… that shifted my trajectory, and I just knew last fall…So, I'm going to shift a smidge here.
Just jump in if I just am going too fast.
No, no, no.
Go ahead.
Go ahead.

So, I connected with the podcast.
Again, it's been such an amazing relationship builder, but I connected with my business partner on the web app for LeadSurveys.
And they had done like 100 WordPress plugins,

they had stuff in CodeCanyon, and they were pulling things out of CodeCanyon.
he said, "Hey…" He reached out and said, "Would you be willing to help promote Support? " And I was like, "Sure.

Well, we hit it off.
He's freaking hysterical.
I love him to pieces.
He's in Croatia, but he understands all the marketing.
They've done a lot of white label plug-ins too.
So, he said, "Do you have any ideas for a plug-in? "

And what the original plan was, was that I wanted good looking Check-out pages for WordPress, right? So, something that almost looks like a ClickFunnels check-out page or a lead… something that looks nice versus a WooCommerce buy something.

So, we were kind of playing with that, and there's actually a guy who has done that already, so that's good.
But I just couldn't wrap my head around a WordPress plug-in, either

because as much as my heart is in WordPress, and it's given me all of this, you know, people complain about spending $100 a year to renew a license.
The open source free plug-in space, you know,

I think in order for WordPress businesses to really be able to survive and thrive, the pricing model's got to shift.
And so I had been playing with something, and I went to this website, like, again, I had become obsessed with understanding marketing.

I had gone to a website, and it was a pop-up, but it wasn't just to give us your name and email.
It was like a three step little questionnaire, and it was like, "Hey,

before we give you the thing, tell us about you? Are you a podcaster, author, blah, blah, blah, whatever.
" So, there's three simple questions in this little [inaudible] window, and I went, "Oh

my God, he's getting so much data on me at the first point of contact.
" So, I tried to hack it, right? I'm like, "Maybe I can use thrive Leads or Gravity Forms, and I can pull this stuff together.
" And I was like,

" So, I have one of my developers look at it.
He said, "Yeah, we can do this, but it'd be hard to do a plug.
" And I was like, what about a web app? So then I went to Gordon, and we had been working on this plug-in.
I'm all, "Just hear me out

but I have this idea and LeadSurveys was born because I really do see the direction like you see Brett and [inaudible] message, and it's providing the right content to the right people at the right time, selling people what they want.

So, it's not so much about, "I've got a list of 50, 000 subscribers.
" Like I've got a list … say it would be more important to have a list of 10, 000 people.
You know who they are.

You know what they like.
You know what they do.
You can show up for them in a different way.
And so that's how LeadSurveys was born.
And so in doing that last fall, I thought,

"You know, I can't keep doing service work.
I cannot keep doing service work.
" And so I made a commitment to myself.
I wrapped up the last website projects in February of this year, February,

March, and the outsourcing, I didn't want to manage it anymore.
So, I let everybody who was using my team, I said, You could just pay them directly because these people have been great for me for years.
Like I have a relationship with my developer and designer, and,

you know, there's a few of them, but I just said, I'll keep sending you guys referrals.
Anytime somebody comes, I send them work, right? I still work with them for me, um,

but I made the decision, and it's been scary, Nathalie.
I mean, like I'm bootstrapping my life, but within all that, it's like I know that what's going to work.
So, with the WordPress Chick,

I think I am shifting just to Kim Doyle.
I may be selling this…Literally like some big changes, right? Nothing is going to happen overnight, um, but through all of this marketing and testing, you know,

it's like things need to convert.
This is a business, and I've really fallen in love with figuring out what is the message, and what is the problem you're solving.

you know, all of these old school advertising principles that still stand the test of time, and connecting with your audience in a way that gets them excited.
Like I think there's a lot of things in this space that are getting tired,

right? Like, okay, how many more posts do we need on "10 plugins every WordPress site should have"? It's like, oh, yawn.
Do you know what I'm saying? And we have so many different mediums of content, and I really think marketing is becoming experiential.

I see…you know, I think it was Joe Pulizzi of Content Marketing Institute, where he said, you know, "Content marketing is just going be marketing, period.
" It's not optional,

and you need to produce content, right? But it's a way to have fun with it.
And it was through, like my daily emails that I started a year ago, it's literally just a story with a link kind of, and it pivots.
I mean,

I tripled sales for an affiliate product in the first like two months that I did that last year.
I don't do a ton of affiliate marketing anymore, um, but it shifted things.

people unsubscribe, that's fine, but do you know how many times people email me back or, Thank you, I needed this today.
" And it's just being yourself, and telling a story.
And, you know,

so many times, whether it's in WordPress or market, doesn't matter.
People decide, they just they just start doing, right? But if it doesn't work, then they go, "Well,

that didn't work.
" Instead of saying, "Okay, well, a piece of that worked.
What didn't? I'm gonna try it again.
" And it's through the doing that you get clarity on where you're going.

I mean, I totally agree.
I mean, we used to build many websites, you know, like… we have the WordPress Help Club, the wphelpclub.
com, which is where we used to build a lot of websites.
And we've really transitioned into membership sites now because,

like you said, website became a commodity, rght? There are so many places that teach you how to build one.
There are great templates.
It's not about a website.
I'm sorry,

but the pretty websites don't sell, right? It's about your content, your copy, your strategy, your conversions, you looking at your numbers.
That's where the money really is, right,

because pretty websites is going to get you nowhere.
So, we kind of realized that also probably like two years ago, something like that, where now, 99% of the sites we do are membership sites.

usually, we do it a membership site, and sometimes the client would hire us for the website.
So, because, you know, they want like similar branding, and they want to keep working with us.
So, we definitely saw that as well, and, I mean,

that's the way, just the thing.
Things are evolving right now.
So, you said you were more like on the content side of things right now.
So, can you…So, you have the app, right?

Is it live now? Is it something that… is it launched? Um, You can sign up to get notified.
The goal is that customers will have access, December 1st.
And so it's leadsurveys.

So, that's happening, um, and I want people that, you know…I kind of went into this year with one big goal, and it was recurring revenue.
I'm tired of project pricing, and any of that kind of stuff.
And so,

like, the whole content piece.
So, then I thought, you know, I sold a content strategy course this year.
Nathalie, It was the easiest thing I've ever sold because I've been walking the walk.
I create content.

I create content, I talk about it, I show up, I do my thing.
And so I emailed my list, I'm like, "I'm gonna do a content strategy class.
I only want 10 people so we can work through it.
" And right away, three people are like, "I want in.
I want in.

I want in.
" And I was like…I didn't even have a landing page, and it was the easiest thing I've ever sold, right? I kind of created it as I went with them.
They get a lot of one-on-one with me.

And then I realized, I'm like, you know, people get so stuck, and I do… We were talking before, there is this, um…the only thing that differentiates people today is themselves, right? Is there a new idea?

I don't know, You know? There's listicle posts.
There's epic posts.
There's tutorials.
There's infographics, but the Only spin you can put on it is you, right? Is you.
And so getting excited about that.
And so then when I thought, I'm like, I want a content membership but I want it to be different.

I don't want it to be… Because I've done courses, and the problem with a course is if it's not evergreen, you've got to go in there and keep redoing the content, redoing the content.
And I'm not saying I have a problem with doing the work because, you know,

my whole F the hustle is funny.
I don't mind hustling when I'm loving what I'm doing.
It doesn't feel like it, right? That the do the work is when you're stuck, and you don't know what's going on, and you're frustrated.
That's when that message is a disconnect.

But when you're in it and you love it, you're on the right path, it doesn't…who cares? Like, I'll work for 16 hours.
I don't care.
I may crash in four days after that.
But anyway,

so with the content piece, you know, Right? I was telling you I've been studying all this stuff.
People are probably tired of me saying this, but the two companies I'm going to compare are ClickFunnels and Leadpages, right?

I was probably one of the first hundred customers to ClickFunnels, and I was like, "Whatever, I can do all this in WordPress, blah, blah, blah.
" And then he came out with his last book called Expert Secrets.
It was kind of the missing piece to the puzzle for me because it's all about the message.

It's message to market.
It's figuring out, and how do you position what you're selling, and how do you solve that problem for somebody, and how how do you… so all of that.
It was like

that's the stuff that a lot of people don't spend time on.
They just go right post.
So, they just go do this, and it's like, back up.
So, I went through that, and then if you look at those two companies,

right? So, ClickFunnels is now three years old.
They're $100 million company, right? They have 50, 000 paying users a month, okay? Again, I have… No, I don't work for them, whatever, right?

But then Leadpages owned the market.
They had that market share before click funnels existed.
They've taken on venture capital.
They still haven't hit $100 million.
ClickFunnels owes nobody a penny.

And so you say to yourself, "How do I position what I'm doing so people feel a part of it, " right? Like there is this level of transparency.
They are prolific content creators.
They show behind the scenes.
He's got…
they've got all this stuff.
And so for me, I was like, I want… If I'm gonna do the app and something through the WordPress Chick or Kim Doyal, I want on the content creation, it has to be fun.

People need to feel a part of it.
And so I'm watching that.
So, the content membership, I have a Facebook group called Content Creators, which, it's just blowing my mind.
We do hot seats in there.
The engagement and the support,

like, it's only two months old, we're almost at 1000 members.
It was validation for me, and so it's like, how do you show up and keep supporting this growth, you know,

and then using that as a platform for a paid membership like 37 bucks a month.
But instead of doing, we're gonna put fundamental, you know, like content strategy, SEO,

basic stuff just comes in there.
But then it's like I get excited about learning something new, like I've been playing with Anchor.
Have you heard of anchor, the audio app? No.

Anchor's like… I joined anchor last year, and I was like, "What is this for? " Well, I think they've gotten funding because they've redone the app.
You can do a podcast through Anchor,

but what's really cool is you can record up to five minutes, and then it will transcribe it, and then you can download a video file actually, if you want, with the transcription of your audio.
So, it's audio content to me.

If you're not doing video yet, audio is a much easier step into it.
Um, but so as an example, like doing the whole training on how to use Anchor to drive traffic and connect with customers, right?

So, whatever is fun and exciting, and I'm testing as well as having fundamentals because I love to learn.
I'm like just… I'm not kidding you, I'm like obsessed with understanding how all this stuff works

I've become a student of marketing as opposed to, you know, jumping on tactics.
Tactics are fun, I like to play with them.
But none of them are ever going to work if you don't know your message.

If you don't know who you're talking to.
If you don't know what they want and what you stand for.
Sorry, I'm getting really ranty.
No, that's great.
I mean,

I love how you are absolutely not scared to try things and basically listen to your intuition.
And, I mean, the fact that you like to explore new things, and you want to learn all the time.
I think, you know,

people say that when you teach is when you learn the most, right? And because things are changing so fast, we kind of have to do that.
So, if you want to be one of the first people that, you know, try out things, and things like that, and be a leader for others, so you can show them, you know, how to use those tools and things like that,

then you'll be ahead of the curve all the time.
So, that is awesome.
So, let's talk about this membership.
So, you said the goal was to get recurring revenues, and I'm guessing it's one for stability,

rigth? So, peace of mind because I know what it is to have, like, a cost, you know, of running a business, right, when you have employees and things like that.
So, I mean recurring

revenues is great.
You don't have to reinvent the wheel every single month to get new clients.
But how does it tie into your… How do you blend, manage personal life and business? I mean,

was that also a way for you to get more free time to do other things or free time to explore even more tools.
How did you manage that new shift of, you know, not doing service anymore?

Um, well, that, it was like I kind of had to retrain myself a little bit, to be honest with you.
Now, I would say it was, God, six years ago now.
I have a mentor therapist that I found when I lost my husband, and she's this phenomenal businesswoman, and she has kind of become this life mentor.

So, I did this thing with her, a while ago where I made a commitment.
It's been a long transition, I'll tell you that, Nathalie.
When I made the decision last fall, but I've got to go.

I was like, I don't care what happens, I can't do this anymore.
I'd rather get a job.
When you know you hit that point, it's like something's off.
And so…But

like I had made a commitment to her that I would never do client work before noon because, like, I'm way more creative in the morning.
Like the first part of the day, like, I can do tasks or I can do,

you know, scheduling of… that kind of stuff in the evening.
But if I need to write or I need to create or I need to show up, like I have to do that the first part of the day.
And so I had started that with her,

and then when I made the decision to stop, it was kind of like, Oh my God, like…What do I do? What am I going to do today, right? Yeah.
And so, you know, it's like I have…
But the thing is, I've always been very diligent.
I've always had a home office.
I come to my desk every day.
I'm here Monday through Friday, you know? It's like I thrive on a routine, and I'll tell you what, I have never loved what I'm doing as much as I do now.

And so it's the… when I started doing the daily email, which hasn't gone out yet today but it will.
Um, but when I started doing that, I had followed Ben Settle.

I've interviewed him a couple times.
His his style and language may not appeal to some people, but I subscribed to him, and I watched what he did for probably a year before I became a customer.
And then I was paying 97 bucks a month for his newsletter,

physical newsletter that comes the mail.
But I watched what he did, and I was like, "You know what, Kim? Just just show up.
Do this one thing everyday.
Just start.
" And I didn't look it like, Oh

my God, email every day.
But I was like, I can do this today, right? And then tomorrow I can do it.
So, those practices helped set me up for this transition because I saw the power of small, consistent action.

And then I started looking at well, what if you just did this? And then I take those emails, and I put him his walk posts half the time, right? And so it's that small, consistent action that…
you know, it's just like anything else in life, truly.
I mean, you get better at it by practicing.
It's exercise, whatever it is.
And so for a while…so I knew Leadsurveys was coming.
At the time,

like this whole idea of maybe I should sell the WordPress Chick, maybe it's time to move on, hit me just like two weeks ago.
I'm not kidding you.
This just happened, but it was,

uh, sort of like a divine hit, like, I think it's time, you know? I think it's time.
You've got a name.
You've got recognition.
You've got an audience.
Um, I don't write a ton about WordPress anymore.

I interview a lot of people still in the space, and I have great friends, and I support what they're doing.
Like I thought, well, I can use the brand to sort of champion other people's stuff.
But, you know,

there's like an energy drain on you if you're doing something that you kind of aren't into anymore.
So, um, you know, the transition into doing this for myself was really… I mean, I'm a list person.

Little to do list.
Accountability works well for me.
Um, and what I think drives so much of what's happening today is the community.
Like when we launched… A friend is doing the Facebook group with me in the membership.

And so I've got the brand, and I said, "Look, there's no way I could do this myself.
I know I can't.
" Um, I said, "But can you help do moderation? We'll split the membership.
Help me with content,

and I will drive…use my name, my brand, whatever.
Um, but being a part of something and having that community and that connection has been a blast, right? And so that totally drives me.

And I've just been reconnecting with people who are doing some phenomenal things, you know, like eight figure earners like… And yes, I want the money.
I'm not going to say I don't but I love what I'm doing right now.

It's…I don't want to say it's the first time, but there's rarely a day where I'm like I don't want to do stuff.
I get more irritated when I'm tired and I need a break because I just want to keep working, you know?

But…because it's fun.
Everything is fun to me.
So, it's it's setting deadlines.
I'm one of those people that accountability works great.
I'll schedule a webinar, and then I need to go create it.

I'll announce something.
I love everything that you said.
I think that there are like some really smart… Let me just move this way.
Like really smart nuggets that you shared.
One is the fact that you do your creative work in the morning.

So, when you want to work smarter and be efficient in, you know, the time that you spend on your business is figuring out when you should do the work that requires your most attention.
When are you the most productive?

For some people, it's in the morning.
For some people, it's not, right? So, it's realizing that, and then you realize that.
And then the other part, I think, is being surrounded and having that network.

You said you have a coach, somebody for accountability, and it's realizing that we don't have to do this alone.
And then sometimes we need accountability.
We need people to call us on our things, and things like that because,

you know, sometimes there are ups and downs, and definitely, it's easier when you're doing something you're passionate about, right? Well, yeah.
And, you know, the accountability thing,

it's interesting, is nothing… First, I used to think accountability was kind of like a weakness.
Now, it's like I I know it works for me.
I'm willing to set it up and, like I also know myself like if I've had a restful weekend,

Um, and like all my family and friends are still in the area.
I'm very grateful and blessed to have good relationships.
My kids are bigger now.
They're like 20 and 16.
It's very easy,

you know, But it's kind of like I know myself well enough that when I… Like my brain is on, right, like all day, evening.
I'm always reading like five books at a time, whatever.

So, they will come…like I can talk to nobody for the whole weekend sometimes, and I'm fine, you know.
I'll go, go, go, go, go, and then I know that like I need to recharge.
And so,

you know, I think that's part of the beauty of getting older is you're like, Nah, it's not going to work for me.
I don't want to do that.
And I don't do things that don't serve me.
I mean,

you know, my parents are probably the only people I would drop anything at the drop of a hat for… not the only people, but all they've got to do is ask, and I'm there.

But really, it's like learning that about yourself, right? And that's the purpose of a lifestyle business.
Like I was never a napper, I love taking naps now.
It feels like such a gift

if I'm hitting a wall or like, you know, I get frustrated, I know enough to like, walk away.
Go walk the dogs, get outside, go take a nap, take a bath, watch a movie.
I love binge TV because when I need to check out,

I need to check out.
My brain is on all the time.
So, it's really learning to honor that, and I think so much about online business, and I'm gonna get a little esoteric here but so be it.
You know,

it's like when you show up excited and happy, you could have a crappy sales page, but there's a connection, and people are gonna want to do business with you.
When you go into something because I need to make the money, it's never gonna work.

It's never gonna work.
I believe that.
If you go into something with, like, a desperation or…like just go and have fun.
I did this other course, which it's not up for sale right now because I'm tweaking the messaging.
24 videos.
It's called Grow Your Audience.

It needs a new name.
That's really, really boring.
It's kind of like write better copy.
Right? But it was me.
I shot 24 videos and there's seven modules because it's all about being this authentic you and showing up, and that's how you grow a business,

right? And so…But the thing is, So, I'm doing this webinar, and I've had some great success with live streaming.
Now, I'm kind of getting into it, finally, even though I've got to get ready or whatever.

So, I did this webinar.
The live stream, 45 minutes, right, when I was getting ready to do the close.
It was probably the best webinar I've ever done.
And you know what, Nathalie?

I was like, Oh, well, I found another platform.
I plugged it out of my comeback.
It's like it is what it is, right? Like I know the content's good.
The connection was there.
It's now,

now tweak it.
People give up so easily.
And it's like I'm passionate about the content because it's what's shifted my business.
It's being me, and showing up, and I wasn't… I'm pretty outgoing,

but I didn't do this.
Like if you read the first blog post I wrote in the WordPress Chick, it's like a robot wrote it.
I'm all, ? What is this? " Right? It's like there's no images.
There's no energy.

It's like… So, you baby step into it, you know.
There's a balance between personal and private, but people want to know you now.
And so I think they want to know they're not in it by themselves.
And when you hear that someone that maybe you think… it looks like they've got it all figured out,

totally flopped, It's like, oh, it's not just me.
You're not happy they failed but you're thinking, "Okay, well, that's good to know.
" Like, to use ClickFunnels again as an example.
I mean,

he used to drive me, crazy Russell Brunson.
But it's all of his content and watching him as a dad and a husband, and how he shows up, and the fact that he shared his story that he was on the verge of bankruptcy, and he had to, you know,

close everything down, and ClickFunnels kind of happened by accident, truthfully.
And that it took him five different webinars to get the one that would start selling ClickFunnels, right? And so it's like, are you willing to do that?

Are you willing to just go back to the drawing board and go back to the drawing board? And it's like the thought of doing anything else just would make me sad.
So, I'm like,

I'm going to do whatever it takes.
I think that also one of the reasons why people don't, you know, keep trying, sometimes then you just give up and they're gone to the next thing is because they're not really connected to their why.

To why they are doing it.
Because if, you know, like you said, or like Brunson said, like if it's not working, I'm going to go back, and I'm going to try to make it better and figure out.
When you're doing something coming from the wrong place, and and by the wrong place, I just mean,

like, by a place where it's not something that you feel really, really passionate about.
If it fails, you're not gonna have no motivation to try to make it work because you're going to say

maybe it's a really bad idea, nobody's going to buy because you haven't done all that homework as to why you want to do it.
So, it's okay to try things but you do have to try things that you really want to do because you want and you enjoy doing them, just not for the money again,

because the money is great but there will be ups and downs.
When there are downs, if you just do it for the money, then it's going to be hard to, you know, kick your butt and,

you know, go back and, you know, try something different.
Then on the accountability, you know, some people see accountability as a weakness.
Like you said, like,

I don't wanna babysit people.
But we're not talking about accountability for you to get up in the morning.
We are talking accountability about doing things that make you uncomfortable, right?

So, it's not- Absolutely.
It's for the big things.
And I think it's totally okay, and you should have accountability buddies for people to encourage you when you have to do something.
Like, right now, I have to shoot a video.
I know I have to shoot a video.

I have been procastinating all day.
Uh, you know, on that.
My daughter just came like an hour ago, and she says, "So, did you shoot the video? " I'm like, "No, I didn't shoot a video, and I don't have a good reason for it.
It's because it's making me uncomfortable,

right? So, that's when we need the accountability.
I need somebody to tell me, "Hey, Nathalie, how is it going with the video? " And I'm gonna say, "Shoot! I said I was going to do the video, I'll have to do the video.

So, connecting back to why I need to do this video? Because if I don't do this video, what is going to happen, right? So, accountability, I'm a big believer of it as well.

and don't you think like at some point, you have to say to yourself, "What I've been doing hasn't worked.
" Right? So, it's very easy.
I mean, for a long time, I don't know if it was just this not wanting to be pushy or salesy,

but it was like I am relentless now in sharing my stuff.
I don't care.
It's going to go everywhere, and if I'm going to do a live stream, I'm going to announce it, I'm gonna share it in 52 place… whatever I need to do.

because the truth is, it's like [inaudible] audience.
What is the likelihood that everybody is seeing everything all the time? Minimum, right? Of course.
But it's like you also need to say,

you know…Here's a great example.
So, I knew someone who kept doing like the technical how to.
There's value in it but I don't think that that's a stellar business model anymore because how to do this?

Google it.
Google it, right? At the end of the day, you can Google it, so it's not sexy.
I know I keep using that term, but it's like, it's not fun and exciting.
And like when I had read the Expert Secrets book, he talks about two things.

He talks about an improvement offer versus a new… an improvement opportunity versus a new opportunity.
An improvement opportunity says, well, I'm going to show you how to do something better because you made a poor choice last time.
The new opportunity says,

well, that wasn't your fault, that was wrong.
This is what you should be doing, right? So, so much of this is the positioning.
And so if you keep getting up and doing a live stream on how to use this piece of technology, or I tried this, and you're not getting an audience,

you're not getting, you know, um, the engagement, stop doing it.
You have to take that risk, right? I mean, at some point, you say, "What I'm doing isn't working.
" And here's the thing, Nathalie,

like, I'm pretty… like this is me, right? Like I'm animated.
I'm not shy, but it was like I redid the podcast intro for WordPress Chick, and then we have a podcast coming out for Leadsurveys.
I spent time.

I wrote the copy.
I wrote the intro, and then I recorded it, right? Well, my desk, actually, I've got a Varidesk.
I an raise it.
I listened to the intros the next day, and I'm like,

"Did you do those in your sleep? " Like they sounded awful.
So, I had to stand up, and I'm like doing it like crazy.
And then it sounded normal.
But I was willing to go back and say, this sounds… like I wouldn't be excited to listen to this.
So, you have to push yourself and… But it happens

like step by step.
I don't think you can be, you know, in your own little space today, and go out and be this prolific brand and name or whatever you want to do.
Just start pushing the envelope a little bit.
And so it's taken me longer

maybe, but like I feel so solid with where I'm going now, and I've put myself out there.
I don't care.
Haters gonna hate, whatever they got to do.
I'm going to show up, I'm gonna be me.

I'm not everyone's cup of tea, I totally get it.
I truly come from a place of positivity and inspiration.
Like I'm never gonna be mean.
I'm never gonna be nasty.
I save that for my personal events offline.

Um, but, you know, it's like part of my mission now is to get people to show up as themselves.
That's where you're going to find your tribe.
Yeah, absolutely.
That was a rant too, sorry.

That's okay.
I love it.
And I really think that that's where, you know, things are turning, things are shifting, right? We see more and more people sharing their stories, incorporating stories into their emails,

and I love that you're you're doing the daily.
So, about the daily, are you writing a daily email or did you batch that? I'm curious.
I write them everyday.
You write them everyday? No, I write them everyday.

Well, and trust me, like there are times that it's like, "What am I gonna write about? " And I usually try to, like, at least have ideas.
So even when I was doing the anchor recordings,

which I really want to get back to because there's a ton of power in that because then you can download a video and put it elsewhere.
Um, but like I'll have ideas, and usually, I know going into the week like… because it's just one link.

So, what did I… Now I'm even… So, yesterday…This is great.
Yesterday, I had a podcast interview in the morning with this guy named Brian Kurtz.
And Brian has this amazing background, 35 years in direct response marketing.

there's all these big names of of advertising like David Ogilvy and copywriters, Halbert and Eugene Schwartz and all this.
He wrote a book, and here's another thing, he was referred to me through another podcast interview with somebody that I'm supporting.

So, this other guy is in his Mastermind.
He said, "You should talk to Brian.
" I was like this little kid, like, Oh my God, like just sucking up the information from Brian because… And this is what's super cool.
He sent me his book,

and then he's bought the rights to publish Eugene Schwartz, advertise… Again, these air core principles, Nathalie, like copyrighting and stuff hasn't changed.
And if you look at all the big internet marketers,

Russell Brunson has studied all these guys.
All these people that have done well have studied the principles that stand the test of time.
Anyway, so I this great interview yesterday with Brian, and I was like, "Oh my God!"

And like the Eugene Schwartz books that he's republishing are like 125 bucks and $175 because he pays royalties to the family.
He pays costs, all that stuff.
He sent them all to me.

I took pictures of the books.
So, anyways, I have this great interview, and I was like, This is the missing piece of puzzle.
I'm so passionate about getting people to step out of their… like I never thought I could do copy.
I was like, boring.

you better friggin figure it out, girl, right? And so then I wrote an email, and my subject line was, "This is what you need to be doing in your business.
" And it was just a link to to Brian's book.

The podcast hasn't aired, but my point was it was this inspiration piece.
I was talking about the fact that it's not about the plugins you use.
It's not about your theme.
It's not about Snapchat or Facebook ads or infographics or webinars.

You get this stuff right, and it will parlay.
You may have to tweak it, right, but then all of a sudden, you're going to know how to sell and position.
And some people might be like, "Well,

I don't want to sell it.
" You have to, its business, and you could do it in an authentic way.
It's the practicing piece, right? So, that was my email yesterday, and I just sent a link out to his book.

another previous podcast interview, this guy, Kyle Gray, wrote a book called The Story Engine.
And he did the content strategy for WP Curve.
Dan Norris brought him on, and so Kyle did all that.

Well, I've interviewed Kyle.
He linked to a post I wrote.
He did this big epic post on content types, right? And so one of them was a personal piece, and how to share that to connect to the audience.

and this year, this is another… This was a daily email on the anniversary of my husband's passing, was May 7th.
I woke up, it's been 14 years now, right? So, I woke up, and I kind of went about my day, and I was like,

" It wasn't the first thing on my mind.
And I was appreciative of that.
Like I think of him everyday, right? And I've got his… my kids are here and all that kind of stuff.
We used to do big celebrations, so I thought,

I'm going to share this with my audience, right? And it's my story.
I've mentioned it before.
You assume everybody knows.
So, I wrote this email, and it was, um, in loving memory, and a personal message of hope.

And the whole thing was, there was a time when I didn't think I'd ever be able to wake up on May 7th without wanting to sob, right? And I have, and I'm able to celebrate my life now.
I never would have thought I would have been to the other side of this,

and I thanked my audience for being on this journey with me.
And I know I've shifted gears different times, and the whole point was your dreams are worth pursuing.
You can do this too.

I got at least 30 or 40 responses to that email on a Sunday.
Then I posted it as a blog post.
I had like 300 shares.
That was the highest traffic day I had to my site in months.
And I thought this story stuff really work.

And it was It was coming from a genuine place.
But so then Kyle linked to me.
So, that's my email today, I'm going to share Kyle's post because there's… How many lessons are there?

One, you can learn a ton from his post.
You can look at his infographic, but two, you don't know relationships, connections, links, how all of this stuff ties together.
It's the power of content.

It's the power of connections.
And so that will be my email today, you know.
And sometimes… before it was on a plug in our product.
And so, you know, I'll take something simple like

my husband.
My son was coming upstairs one day, and he dropped his breakfast.
I heard this huge crash.
I was like…I'm like, "Are you okay? " He's like, "I knew I was going to do that.
" He said, "I'm coming up the stairs thinking,

don't drop your breakfast.
" So, I was like, this is a perfect story about how many times do we do that in our business? We set ourselves up.
I know this isn't going to do well or people don't really want this, and our mindset sets us up for failure,

right? So, I shared that story.
I don't remember what I linked to, but that's it.
That's the email everyday.
Sometimes I have to cut them back because it's easy to hit 800 words with those sometimes.
But then it's blog content, and then I share it,

and the people who are not on my list either get on my list or they see it again.
I love this.
I mean, you probably don't know this, but I run my business with my husband.
He's also my business partner, and we've been running this since 2006.

So, it's been a while too.
And he keeps telling me that we have to add stories to our email.
We have to tie it to stories.
So, when he listens, and he might be listening right now, he's downstairs.
He's going to be a really happy camper.
He's going to say, "Yeah, see,

I told you.
Story, story, story.
" Because, you know, I tend, you know, as technical people, I think, I mean, I tend to be very boring.
It's like facts, bullet points.
And every time I have shared personal things like,

I have been too big Masterminds, you know, I have traveled to, uh, Costa Rica, New York, and things like that to meet my buddies.
And when I have shared with my list, and be feeling personal and vulnerable, that's where I got the most engagement,

right? So, we kind of know that already, right? We've known that, but why don't we apply it? I mean, it's like, you know, we have to be consistent.
It's consistency, I think.

And again, I come back to it's not a natural comfort zone, right? I think Western culture is, you know…I mean, things are shifting.
I mean, you look at why did Brené Brown blow up? Are you familiar with Brené Brown? Yeah.

So, like, because she talks about vulnerability, and being raw and real, and people were like, thank you, right? It was like we're craving this connection and this, like…
You know, when I think about people who get up, they go to work, they come home, they do dinner, they watch TV, they wash, they rinse, repeat.
I'm like, Oh

my God, right? I don't know how people do it.
It's not a judgment by any means.
But everybody wants to feel connection.
Everybody wants to know they're not in it alone.
And so the thing is,

though, we're all afraid of rejection.
Likem Nathalie, for the longest time, I didn't want to do the videos.
It was like a course with me on video because I was like, I'm not happy with my weight.

I've got to do this…you know, and it's like nobody gives a shit, Kim.
That's true.
Like nobody cares.
Like be you and… right? You know? And I'm not saying I'm a troll or anything, but it's like nobody

is looking at that, you know.
They want to connect, and so you have to find a way.
And here's the funny thing.
Like you said, like doing the bullet points and the technical, it's like,

well, who does that attract? People who want to learn how to do something for free.
And I'm not saying… like that's a very blanket statement, right? But I mean, for a long time,

I would get people messaging or commenting on Blog posts, "Well, can you help me do this, and can…" I'm like, well, no.
Like no.
Like…Do you know what I'm saying? It's like I don't go to the grocery store, and expect them to teach me how to cook my dinner.

But it's like… So you have to be careful with… Like you can sell through stories, but if you teach too much, no one's going to buy because why do I need to buy from you because you teach me for free all the time.

And so I think there's a fine line, and the only way to get clear on it is through doing it.
And you just have to practice and be like, I'm gonna share this, you know?

And don't get me wrong, there's plenty of times I'm like, nobody cared about that story, but whatever, you know.
And then it may do really well in the blog, but nobody opened the email.

So, you just keep at it.
I have one more question actually, about the daily email.
When did you start doing that? Um, it was over, it was about a year ago, August.

And for a while, I called it my almost daily email because I would miss days here and there.
Okay, And how did your list react? Did you tell them, "Hey, I'm going to start doing daily emails.
" Did I?

I may have.
I may have said I was…because that's the other thing, you know.
Like Gary Vaynerchuk, I have this love-hate relationship with him too but at the same time, he preaches.
And I actually met him once in an elevator.

I have a quick story.
I didn't have my phone.
It was just him and I.
The doors opened, and I went, "Gary Vee!" Like I was so excited.
He took a picture on his phone, and he sent it to me.
The guy is just awesome,

But he says document and share.
That's all you need to create, right? Document and share, but then be willing to to test and tweak it.
And so, initially with the emails, I think I probably shared what I was doing,

and I get unsubscribes everyday.
But you know what, it's part of business, right? I get new subscribers everyday.
And you know what, I use Drip, and so there's ways that I could be setting probably better filters and stuff but I'm like,

you know what…It's like I've got nothing to lose.
If they're going to opt-in and unsubscribe, so be it.
It is what it is.
And a lot of people have been on this journey with me when I was doing more how to do this with WordPress, and I'm not anymore.

So, I get that.
But I can't begin to tell you, like here's a great example.
I've created this wonderful relationship with this girl named Cheryl in the UK.
She emailed me.
She downloaded.

I had this, its a one page WordPress marketing plan.
It's an infographic, but it's an audio.
And it's like, you want to build a business with WordPress, create good content.
Optimize your stuff.

Email your list.
It's the basics, right? Anyways.
So, she listened to this audio.
She sent me this email that said, "Kim, I can't tell you how much your audio meant to me because I've been struggling at this for like a year.
" But when you're not technical,

this stuff can hurt your head.
And we forget what it's like when you don't know all this stuff.
And so, you know, you get one of those thank you so much, you've given me the hope to stick with this.

And it's like, my work here is done, you know.
And so, I don't know, the messages and the, "I love your emails.
You're killing it.
This is great.
" You know? Even I did… So, Monday this week,

the email was The Future of the WordPress Chick: Part one.
I saw it, yep.
And I shared it with people.
I saw that.
You know, I don't… Okay.
And so then somebody in the Facebook group for content creators did this huge post, and she said, "Wonderful email today,

" And then that triggers people to go… right? And so, there's a connection piece.
And so I love it.
I never knew I'd have so much fun writing.

but now I've also… like, I love Grammarly, right? I go back and I edit, and I tweak, and I'm like, "You didn't need to add that.
You're getting too wordy.
" Or I use the word just like no one's business.
Like, "Don't stop.
" You know?

So, the practice of it has made me confident in my ability to create content.
In my ability to show up.
In my ability to inspire.
Truth, Nathalie, like I wanted to be a motivational speaker.
That was like my big thing.

And in some ways, it's coming to fruition through how I show up online.
Love it, love it, Kim.
Thank you so much for sharing all this.
I mean, we have a lot of resources to share below.
Definitely your lead…
how is the… Leadsurveys web app, and then some books that you've mentioned, um, and then your website.
should we share, kimdoyal.
com? And there's a [crosstalk].

When this…Yeah, you can share both.
It'll be up.
I'm just tweaking it.
It's gonna be very simple for now, but, yeah, I guess.
That's kind of where all the stuff on content and the membership, all that's going to happen through there.

So, if people want to, uh, start learning more from you, um, where should they sign up for something? Do you have any, uh? Well, kimdoyal.
com is great.
And then the opt-in,

um, I would say, um, you can do kimdoyal.
I need to write that down.
I'll tell you what, this is really fun.
Um, is…Well…they're content templates, but they're fun.

And like they're visual.
I want to make sure I don't forget this link, so I do a short URL.
We will share and make sure that it's on before we go live so that people can get to it.
Crib notes… /cribnotes.

Well, thank you so much, Kim.
It was really nice to connect with you, and find out about, you know, your journey as a lifestyle entrepreneur.
And thank you so much for accepting my invitation.
Thank you,

Nathalie, for having me.
I'm totally glad we connected.
I'm sure we'll be doing something together, or connecting, or sharing or whatever.
So, thank you.
I really appreciate being here.
Thank you.

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